tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post2949412876683075804..comments2024-02-16T04:05:43.414-05:00Comments on Charming the Birds from the Trees: Do Orthodox Christians Worship Icons?MamaBirdEmmahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08953172914077823820noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-27045686320735776412009-07-11T15:00:36.116-04:002009-07-11T15:00:36.116-04:00Very enlightening, Emma. Of course, as a Catholic,...Very enlightening, Emma. Of course, as a Catholic, I knew some of these things, but I had never heard of the Holy Doors used in Orthodox churches! I love that the central image on the doors is of the Annunciation; what a perfect depiction of Christ's love for us and the obedience we owe to Him, symbolized in the Theotokos.Bethany Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12002485534563054176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-34102414196059688902008-03-15T23:25:00.000-04:002008-03-15T23:25:00.000-04:00I was trying to make an analogy to better express ...I was trying to make an analogy to better express the intent, not draw a direct correlation. So, it's not really important to the main idea--but is it time to find out the Orthodox teaching on saints!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-62003987434517195102008-03-13T11:09:00.000-04:002008-03-13T11:09:00.000-04:00Okay, but still, if you speak to a dead family mem...Okay, but still, if you speak to a dead family member, it still isn't a conversation. It is a one-way conversation which isn't conversing at all. Are you saying that you can ask a saint, to ask Jesus to ask God for a request? I would still like to know why some people who have died are "saints" and others aren't. If you can speak to your dead parent, why is she any different than a saint?<BR/>EverlyEverly Pleasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11852907174929173979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-15968495023593726082008-03-12T22:50:00.000-04:002008-03-12T22:50:00.000-04:00"I do ask my friends and family for prayer, but th..."I do ask my friends and family for prayer, but they are praying to God."<BR/><BR/>We believe the Saints in heaven are praying to God as well. What is the difference between your friends and family and the Saints? If you say "death," well, then I'd reply that death has no sting, for Christ has defeated it.<BR/><BR/>"We believe that Christ is the only mediator in Heaven-that's why He's special."<BR/><BR/>We believe Christ is the only Mediator, period. He is the only way to the Father for us. This doesn't necessarily have to do with asking intercession and/or the topic of Saints.<BR/><BR/><BR/>"I can't say that I've had "a conversation with a beloved parent or grandparent who has passed on.""<BR/><BR/>Most people can, especially when faced with a pressing issue (like "Mom, I'm having such a rough time with the kids. I wish you were here.")<BR/><BR/>"Christ is our "High Priest" so we can talk directly to God."<BR/><BR/>We of course can and do talk directly to God (and this is our worshiping prayer)--except we don't forget what the Scripture teaches us about the prayer of the righteous man.<BR/><BR/>"So, with that said if you can communicate with any Christian in Heaven, what sets a saint apart?"<BR/><BR/>That is a discussion that requires that we have the same understanding of the meaning of Christian life, salvation, heaven, and many other essential aspects of Christian belief. While I am sure that we use many of the same terms, I am even more sure that we do not mean the same things by them, and that to begin such a conversation without a solid common understanding will be fruitless. I'd suggest a book such as "Divine Energy: The Orthodox Path to Christian Victory." While it can be polemical, I found it to be a readable way to "go back to the basics" and gain at least a partial understanding of the Orthodox view of creation, the fall, the Incarnation, and salvation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-82672120739162792532008-03-12T17:47:00.000-04:002008-03-12T17:47:00.000-04:00Choirfiend,Thank you very much for your explanatio...Choirfiend,<BR/>Thank you very much for your explanation. I guess that I find it confusing because Baptists refer to any Christian (you, me, and anyone) as "Saints." I do ask my friends and family for prayer, but they are praying to God. I don't believe in communicating with those who have passed on (e.i. asking my grand father to ask God to heal a friend etc.) We believe that Christ is the only mediator in Heaven-that's why He's special. I can't say that I've had "a conversation with a beloved parent or grandparent who has passed on." Christ is our "High Priest" so we can talk directly to God instead of through an earthly priest or someone who has died. I have Catholic family and friends who do things such as pray to Saint Anthony when their keys are missing (if I have that right) etc. This makes it seem as if that saint can help them, not God himself. So, with that said if you can communicate with any Christian in Heaven, what sets a saint apart?<BR/>EverlyEverly Pleasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11852907174929173979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-88529128315516733772008-03-12T11:04:00.000-04:002008-03-12T11:04:00.000-04:00"But I have a question, does the catholic church o..."But I have a question, does the catholic church only depict people such as the apostles, Christ and Mary that they pray to even though they aren't praying to the picture itself?"<BR/><BR/>I'm not Catholic, so I won't be able to comment on that directly, but the Orthodox Church writes icons of the holy people of Christendom. Those who have completed the race and received their crown--saints! The word 'saint' means 'set-apart,' or in today's usage, 'holy.' This includes the Mother of God, the Apostles, and many men and women who have lived for God. Icons are written of them for reasons like what Margaret said, and because they serve as inspirations and reminders of what a life lived for Christ should look like! <BR/><BR/>People do pray to all the saints. But to address an earlier point, prayer does not equal worship! To pray comes from English 'I pray thee,(prithee) do as I ask.' It means to make a request. Do you ask others around you to pray for you? Do you pray for others, typically by name and situation, when you're at church? All Christians should pray for one another. The way we see it, the Christians in heaven don't stop praying for the world just because they are now alive in Christ! Those holy Christians, the saints, pray to God for us. And we, being the Christians in the world, ask for their prayers. "The prayers of a righteous man availeth much," we are taught. And the prayers of the holy righteous people of God, alive with Him in heaven, certainly help us!<BR/><BR/>This prayer is different than prayer offered to God because we're not worshiping the saints. They're humans, like us, who are alive in Christ and Christ in them. That's what we all strive for. We're just 'talking' to them, but worshiping God. <BR/><BR/>Worship belongs to God alone. But many people will talk to and honor those who have gone on before. Ever had a conversation with a beloved parent or grandparent who has passed on? Ever kissed a picture of a loved one who has died or was far away? This is the same intent as 'praying' to the holy Christians who have gone on before us. They are our church family! They are that cloud of witnesses that is cheering us on as we have our chance to run the race. They love us and want us to finish the race, and praying to them is asking for more cheers.<BR/><BR/>We understand that God is Lord, and worshiping Him while speaking to Him (in praise, prayer requests, psalmnody, and thanksgiving) is only for Him, and different than the way we ask for the prayers of Christians around us, both in the world, and passed on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-56319004469112759222008-03-05T12:18:00.000-05:002008-03-05T12:18:00.000-05:00Thank you Choirfiend,Very interesting. It is fasci...Thank you Choirfiend,<BR/>Very interesting. It is fascinating to think that perhaps there really was a statue made in the likeness of God in human form. I think that there are a few conclusions that we can likely draw when painting or drawing Christ. He probably looked middle eastern with dark hair, eyes and skin, probably had short hair and was of medium build. I don't think that he would be exceptionally small or large...or exceptionally anything! But I have a question, does the catholic church only depict people such as the apostles, Christ and Mary that they pray to even though they aren't praying to the picture itself?<BR/>EverlyEverly Pleasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11852907174929173979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-15175674362911733252008-03-05T09:45:00.000-05:002008-03-05T09:45:00.000-05:00Everly,One interesting fact is that oral and writt...Everly,<BR/><BR/>One interesting fact is that oral and written history teaches that the Apostle Luke (an educated, cultured man) wrote one of the first icons--of Mary, the Mother of God. And, there was a statute erected in the square of Christ healing the woman with the issue of blood, which was said to be a true likeness (this is no longer existing). <BR/><BR/>While we cannot and do not claim that an icon is a perfect representation, real people did see Christ, the Apostles, Mary, and the saints who came after. They wrote icons that were reasonable likenesses, albeit "perfected" in the icon style, which is used to reveal to us a higher reality, not simply depict a person as they were. And those early icons were copied, maintained, shared, and passed down. Maintaining the standard of iconography is every iconographer's job. The guidelines must be followed. And what results is a continuity that can be followed throughout the centuries. We know that the icon is not an exact depiction of Christ--but it's much closer to what he looked like than a painting that is completely from an artist's imagination, the "blonde-haired blue-eyed Jesus" that we see in so many paintings, picture Bibles, and stained glass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-58742106198283853762008-02-29T10:36:00.000-05:002008-02-29T10:36:00.000-05:00Margaret,That's very interesting. I hadn't thought...Margaret,<BR/>That's very interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. Something that has always bothered me is that in Sunday School papers or the pictures on the wall, Jesus always looks the same, when in fact we have know idea what he looked at. We only know that he wasn't noticeable and blended in. Funny, he always has medium-long hair, and at that time, it was the custom for the men to have their hair cut short.<BR/>EverlyEverly Pleasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11852907174929173979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-69160709246137368212008-02-29T04:49:00.000-05:002008-02-29T04:49:00.000-05:00Protestant friends have asked me why we have statu...Protestant friends have asked me why we have statues, icons and religious pictures in our home. <BR/><BR/>One way I have tried to explain it is that when you love someone, you like to have pictures of them - i.e. family, friends, children, grandchildren, etc. When someone dies, their portrait becomes even more precious to you as it helps you remember happy times you shared with them. <BR/><BR/>As Christians, who better to have pictures of than Jesus, His mother and His friends? Of course they aren't exact representations like photographs, but they serve as holy reminders to us. <BR/><BR/>Icons are beautiful and have such depth of meaning in every detail - most people just think they are pretty paintings. I am glad you posted this article - it explains the history, meaning and purpose of icons very well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-3457087558772602192008-02-29T02:41:00.000-05:002008-02-29T02:41:00.000-05:00Emma, I was delighted to see the extract explainin...Emma, <BR/>I was delighted to see the extract explaining icons; the person who wrote it is my beloved godfather and is now my parish priest too ! <BR/><BR/>Fr Luke will be so pleased to see it being used still !Elizabeth @ The Garden Windowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00274788007550318693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-4229051391134284002008-02-28T22:53:00.000-05:002008-02-28T22:53:00.000-05:00Very interesting!I don't have any issue with the u...Very interesting!<BR/>I don't have any issue with the use of icons in the way which you described it. I love doing communion or holding a cross while I pray because, as humans, we sometimes are helped by tangible things in our spiritual life. I don't agree with the Catholic church on many things (if I did, I wouldn't be Baptist) but I do like that they use ceremonial or tangible things to help understand. We have pictures in our children's Sunday School but usually just a cross in the sanctuary. Another thing is, Catholic churches are always so much prettier than Baptist churches! I didn't think that there was anything wrong with icons but I see where some ignorant people get it confused with idolatry which was my point in my previous comment. I am very glad to learn more about the denomination. Do you not consider prayer a form of worship though? I think there must be a hole in my understanding of your denomination. Thanks for educating me and thanks for the great post, it was very informative. I enjoy your blog very much.<BR/>EverlyEverly Pleasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11852907174929173979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-85471762253691650552008-02-28T20:58:00.000-05:002008-02-28T20:58:00.000-05:00Emma-I've been away for a few days, and I just rea...Emma-<BR/>I've been away for a few days, and I just read both posts you have here on icons. Thank you for sharing them. While I don't totally agree with the use of icons, at least I am better informed now and I have enough respect for you not to judge you on the way you choose to decorate your church or by symbols you use to help you feel closer to God. My church has stained glass windows w/ pictures depicting Christ life. I also wear a cross around my neck - do I worship it?- no, but it helps to remind me of the suffering and sacrifice of my Lord- and His love for me. I am sorry that someone took it upon themselves to be so pious and cruel. I am not Orthodox or even Catholic for that matter- but I am a saved by grace Christian. I love the Lord, and it hurts me to see that someone would allow the devil to use them to hurt another brother or sister in Christ- and divide the body of Christ. It breaks my heart. Please know, we are not all like that! In His Love, TiffanyTiffanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07586917313753074696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6212550248931823866.post-56180221962244770472008-02-28T18:07:00.000-05:002008-02-28T18:07:00.000-05:00Thank you for sharing this fascinating post, Emma....Thank you for sharing this fascinating post, Emma. I do not know much about the Orthodox Church, but am quite intrigued after learning this bit of information :o)Amyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08380491283652150727noreply@blogger.com